How America Got Healthcare Wrong – A Libertarian Economist’s View on Medical Freedom

Zane Myers (00:01.368)
Hi and welcome to the Holistic Entrepreneur and we're really happy to have someone kind of outside of our lane today, Dr. Murray Sabrin and he is a professor emeritus at Ramapo. Did I say that correctly? Ramapo, Ramapo, because there's the Ramapo Mountains that are nearby, right? Okay, so at Ramapo College in New Jersey and you've written, I think, is it six books now?

Murray Sabrin (00:16.259)
Ramapo Close.

Murray Sabrin (00:21.05)
That's correct.

Murray Sabrin (00:29.584)
Six books, they're rolling back at me right there.

Zane Myers (00:32.042)
Okay. And so I almost want to jump right into a couple of them because, you know, lot of our audience has been involved in medical, although we've been strained away from that, not away from it, but we're being strained into other avenues recently. But the two that have particular interest to me, one of them was universal medical care.

from conception to end of life, the case for a single payer system. So I wanna make a comment first, and then I wanna launch into that because I've read some of your stuff and I would say that you would be considered a very conservative person. Do you think that's accurate?

Murray Sabrin (01:18.524)
Well, it would be libertarian since that's my philosophy. I don't know what conservative means anymore because conservative means you want to maintain the status quo and maintaining status quo is what I'm working against. So the status quo is not something that I'm in favor of. We need to really have, quote, radical change, not the type that Bernie Sanders and AOC want, but the type of change that the

Zane Myers (01:21.388)
Libertarian, okay.

Murray Sabrin (01:46.448)
founders gave us in 1776. That was a revolution. That was a philosophical revolution, just as much as it was a political armed revolution.

Zane Myers (01:56.238)
So let me drift back to, so your leanings are more towards what we would consider, well, the libertarian, is more of a, I don't know what conservative means anymore either, but there's conservatives and liberals in the 1960s were considerably different than the conservatives and liberals today.

And probably in the 1920s, you could say that again. And then going back each point in our history, that those words mean slightly different things and the approaches there mean slightly different things. But I want to talk about the reason why I brought that up is in context of the title of that book, Universal Medical Care and the case for single payer system, which is considered radical. mean, it is considered like Bernie Sanders has proposed

using that. So tell me about that book in particular. I want to find out what is a single-pair medical system.

Murray Sabrin (03:00.282)
Well, from my perspective, it's very simple. It's the doctor patient relationship, which I remember growing up in the 1950s and 60s in New York City, where your parents would take you to the doctor. You'd pay the five, seven dollar office visit. There was no copay, no paperwork, no insurance claims. Then if you needed a prescription, you'd go to the local pharmacy, pay a few dollars. There was no insurance for that. You just paid it out of pocket. My father was a blue collar worker.

making $3 an hour back in the 1950s. And so that's my vision of what good medical care was because you got to spend time with the doctor. If you needed to see a specialist, you'd go there and you need to pay out of pocket or possibly Blue Cross Blue Shield would pay for it because that's what my father's insurance was. And then when he had a major operation in 1961 in Manhattan at a private hospital, Blue Cross Blue Shield kicked in.

So the real issue for me is from a finance and from a citizen perspective and from a consumer's perspective is that we're overinsured. We're trying to use insurance to pay for things that should be done out of pocket. That's why I call it single payer. The individual is a single payer with paying for services as they're needed. And then you would have a catastrophic insurance policy for take care of the big stuff.

And even the big stuff can be less costly than it is today. And I give you a perfect example. When I wrote that book, I came across this concept called direct primary care. And I didn't know what that was about. So I read up about it. And it meant that you would contract with a physician. You'd pay a monthly fee for you and your spouse or you and your family with your spouse. And you'd have access to the doctor virtually 24 seven.

And so I spoke to two doctors, one from Massachusetts, one from Florida that had a direct primary care practice. And they loved it because most primary care doctors have around 2000 patients or thereabouts. Primary care doctors tend to have no more than about 800 patients and they get to know them quite well. You don't have a 10, 15 minute visit and everyone is satisfied. The doctor can spend time with the patient. The patient has access to the doctor.

Murray Sabrin (05:19.184)
And then you would have a catastrophic policy if you needed to have an operation. And so when I interviewed this doctor from Florida, and I spent a lot of time with her, and she told me about a patient she had who had no insurance, and he needed an operation. I forgot it was probably a knee operation because the local hospital quoted him $20,000 for the operation, which was quite expensive for someone who didn't have insurance and was probably a...

an individual of modest income. So she told him, call the Surgery Center of Oklahoma, which doesn't take insurance, it's entrepreneurs, doctors getting together and providing medical care to the patients. So he called up the Surgery Center of Oklahoma. The patient told the doctors what they needed, what he needed, and they said for the whole procedure plus the hospital stay plus the transportation, it would be $5,000.

Zane Myers (06:16.002)
Wow, so.

Murray Sabrin (06:16.06)
So we're going from $20,000 typical operation in a local hospital to $5,000 including transportation, which he was willing and could afford to pay out of pocket. That's what I envision with a single payer that the patient is in charge of determining what type of medical care they want and using their own dollars or if they have a catastrophic policy for a major operation.

And the other thing that I'm involved in and speaking to people is that we're over-medicated. And I think most people who look at the healthcare system in the United States would realize that we seem to get a prescription drug for every element under the sun. And the chronic disease issue is a problem that RFK Jr. is tackling as Secretary of Health and Human Services. So for me, the single payer that I envision is 180 degrees opposite of Bernie Sanders, where he wants the government

to take over medical care, lock, stock and barrel. And today the American people pay roughly $5 trillion in medical care. That's Medicare, Medicaid, employer-based insurance out of pocket. We could reduce that by, I would say at least 30%, if not more, because given the economics of this, it's pretty simple that these things could be handled.

at the individual level. so therefore, I propose in my two books that I wrote, is that we should get the government out of medical care as quickly as possible, and that will reduce our costs tremendously.

Zane Myers (07:56.024)
So let me jump in here, because I agree in many ways. In fact, I interviewed two different people who were in the concept of delivering single payer, your concept of single payer. Basically, you contract with the physician group, and then you have access to them. And then above and beyond that, you have this catastrophic

sort of insurance. One was in, I think in Minnesota, and the other was in Ohio, and they're both growing really, really at phenomenal rates and looking at expanding as much as they can. But when I think about, I'll just take New York as an example, you have someone, a politician in New York right now who's running for office, who is proposing free everything.

Murray Sabrin (08:55.579)
Mm-hmm.

Zane Myers (08:55.778)
We're going to pay for you to do, know, have a, we're going to pay for your apartments. We're going to pay for your grocery stores. You're not going to have to pay for anything. Everybody, and we're going to tax all the folks who have money and you're going to all going to get this free stuff. And, you know, probably healthcare is going to be thrown in there for free as well. And you in New York City, when I say you, you're in that general New York metropolitan area.

in that metropolitan area, they tend to have a lot of people who have a tilt towards that because it's always been a city of immigrants who, you know, people struggle to get by and it's very expensive. So how do you go from there to what you're talking about, which is like, it's not just in a different county, it's in a different world. How do you transition?

Murray Sabrin (09:48.24)
Well, I'm in Southwest Florida now. We left New Jersey five years ago, actually four years ago, exactly four years ago, June of 2021, a year after I retired. said, I spoke to my wife and I said, there's no reason for us to stay in New Jersey, given the property taxes we're paying on our co-op, the income taxes we're paying, and with no kids, no grandkids. It's expensive to live in New Jersey when you are paying all these taxes and you get very little in return for them.

Zane Myers (09:53.451)
OK.

Murray Sabrin (10:16.348)
So we made the move to Florida, which doesn't have a state income tax. And we're living in an independent living facility, which for people in their senior years, this is a good lifestyle for many people because so many amenities are here. But anyway, here's my approach to medical care, which would take care of low income and poor people. And I use the word poor in parentheses because poor people in America are a lot different than poor people in Africa and in Asia.

Zane Myers (10:45.293)
Yes.

Murray Sabrin (10:45.946)
and in South America. I mean, I've never seen so many poor people with cell phones. I mean, that's the irony of where we're living. People have access to technology, cell phones and computers, internet, what have you. But anyway, recently I wrote an open letter to Bill Gates on my Substack, MurraySabren.Substack.com. And I pointed out that he and his fellow billionaires in the United States can help create enough nonprofit medical centers to eliminate Medicaid.

And this is how a nonprofit medical center works. In the old days, they were called mutual aid societies. I am a founding trustee of one in Northern New Jersey. There's one here in Naples where I live. It's been around 26 years. It was founded by a physician and his wife. They don't take a penny of taxpayer dollars. It's all voluntary contributions. The old fashioned American philanthropic charitable way that people get together at the local level.

and help people in need, whatever those needs are, housing, habitat, humanity, you have food banks, you have crisis centers, you pregnancy crisis centers, you have Salvation Army, you have Alcoholics Anonymous, these are all Salvation Army, these are examples of the people getting together and helping their fellow citizens who are in need, but not to make it a permanent lifestyle. So.

If Bill Gates and Warren Buffett and Michael Bloomberg who say they're concerned about healthcare use some of their resources, which are in the tens and tens of billions of dollars, we don't need, we just need a few billion dollars to create enough nonprofit health centers, which are staffed by volunteer doctors. They don't get paid. They have a minimal staff. Most of the fundraising goes to provide services to the people in the community. So the neighborhood health clinic, which is what it's called in Naples, in my neighborhood.

They have dental services, they have pharmaceutical services, they're building a new building with, they were able to do testing, testing on different illnesses. So here's an example of social entrepreneurship at its best. No government dollars, virtually no government oversight. are positions that have been around for 30, 40 years that are willing to give up X number of hours per week. And it works seamlessly. I mean,

Murray Sabrin (13:07.94)
If we could create these all across the country and have it in rural areas with mobile buses, there was a story about two nurses that have a bus in West Virginia to treat people in the rural communities. If we could do that, it doesn't take a lot of money given the resources that the Gates Foundation has over $50 billion, Buffett's worth over 100 billion, Michael Bloomberg's worth about 70 billion. They single-handedly, those three individuals.

can eliminate the Medicaid budget, is $900 billion a year. We would have better health outcomes for low-income people. We would get them healthy so they wouldn't have the chronic illnesses, which cost a fortune, you know, diabetes, heart disease, and other illnesses, obesity. So that's one aspect of a free market, if you will, libertarian approach to medical care that doesn't involve the government and doesn't involve huge bureaucracies because

You wouldn't need all these federal and state and local health departments. It would all be done at these local nonprofit health centers. I still support three of them in New Jersey, even though I don't live there, because I know the founders, they do great work, and they're doing incredible work with no or very little taxpayer dollars. And so if we could expand that over the next five years,

And I think it would be a five-year plan to create these, and you don't need a lot of space to do so. The one here in Naples looks like it's part of a hospital system. It's that well equipped. mean, people should go on it online and look at it, the neighborhoodhealthclinic.org in Naples, Florida. And you can see the tremendous work people are doing. Then you have BVMI, which I'm the founding trustee.org in Northern New Jersey.

Then you have the Parker Family Health Center in Redback, New Jersey, and the Zarephath Health Center in Central Jersey. So these are people, physicians that said, there's a need in our community. The government is not doing a great job with Medicaid. Let's do something that will provide a service free of charge to people. Of course, they can donate $5, whatever they want to, to help support the institution.

Murray Sabrin (15:27.452)
And you solve a problem without bureaucracy and without taxpayers being burdened by this. and the and here's the beauty of it. You get such better outcomes for such little expenditures. It really makes Medicaid look like a Soviet bureaucracy.

Zane Myers (15:33.688)
So, but.

Zane Myers (15:45.72)
Well, it ends up that Medicaid is kind of like a Soviet bureaucracy. So it sounds very idealistic. So you have these individuals situations that you're talking about, but which one of those billionaires has stepped up and said, I'll fund that or I'll do that. And how would you get them from, like Bill Gates, I'm here in Bellevue, Washington and Bill Gates.

also lives in like a suburb of Bellevue, Washington called Medina. And he has this foundation and this base out of Seattle and they spend billions of dollars. But I would say probably 60 % of that goes to other countries, to Africa, to all these other underfunded countries. And he feels like he's doing his

his leaving his legacy in the world by helping these countries that have these horrible health maladies and that he can have the biggest impact. He's always about the biggest impact that I can have on a community. I'm not making a judgment about it, know, whether he's right or wrong or whatever, but that's how he always espouses his philosophy of his foundation is I want to make...

Murray Sabrin (16:50.873)
Mm-hmm.

Zane Myers (17:09.854)
leave the biggest impact on the world that I possibly can with the money that I'm funding through this foundation. So how do you get somebody like that who is already spending billions of dollars around the world to say, well now let's fund this idea within the United States.

Murray Sabrin (17:27.686)
Well, that's why wrote the open letter. Hopefully someone who knows him has read it and has forwarded to him because it just lays out the case step by step that this is part of the American culture going back to the colonial days of the barn raising of people helping each other with the farmer getting sick and people that chip in timewise to help get the crop out of the ground. And so this is

happened throughout American history. The American people are the most generous people on the face of the earth. And when you have so much wealth in this country and we're still having 71 million people on Medicaid, think about that, one every five Americans is on Medicaid and the outcomes are not that great. So let's try something that is, not only has a great reputation, but it can be duplicated all across the country with very little money.

And this is where information, what I'm doing on Substack is to get that information out to people. The founder of the Parker Family Health Center in Red Bank called me after he read that article and he said, I'm gonna get this to as many people as I can. And there's an umbrella organization for these nonprofit medical centers. And so I'm hoping this spreads across the country. So if there are any doctors listening, they can go to the neighborhood health clinic and see how they created their organization.

And if this thing can spread all across the country, if you have 10,000 of these over the next five, seven years, then you would have what, 70,000 people affiliated with each of them. That's 70 million people. But a lot of the children that are on Medicaid, they're pretty healthy. So they don't need much help. It wouldn't be a burden to the community. The doctors would be doing so. Now you have doctors who are retired.

That is your primary medical army, if you will, for the nonprofits because how many rounds of golf can retired doctors play? They can go and spend five, 10, 20 hours a week, whatever they want, and the doctors love it. You know why? There's no paperwork. There's no bureaucrats looking over their shoulder. There's no insurance companies looking over their shoulder. It's the doctor-patient relationship, which is the foundation of medical care, good medical care.

Zane Myers (19:48.268)
So I actually want to dig in right there because I think that now you're talking about something that really seems more pragmatic approach. I like the idea of, you know, using seniors who are really experienced and probably have been as a physician. I know a lot of them that they really do get frustrated. And you see your regular physician at

Murray Sabrin (20:07.9)
Hmm.

Zane Myers (20:16.948)
at the clinic or whatever, and they really don't like that they're pushed to see X amount of patients in a day, and they don't tend to get to know their patients unless the patients are really forceful about the time. It's really difficult. And you're right. If you're in Medicaid, you really never get to know your physician at all because you may be rotating through a whole bunch of different physicians. So how would you organize that in

in a way that could mobilize something to actually happen.

Murray Sabrin (20:52.9)
Well, this is why people in Washington are writing this new bill. They could expand charitable contributions and make it more attractive for people. The evidence shows that people don't make charitable contributions because of the tax deduction. They make charitable contributions because they believe in the mission of the organization that's providing a service. And that's been true of all the research that's been done. People love to see outcomes for their charitable contributions.

So if you can show that you're serving X number of people and you're getting people, their diabetes under control, you're getting their weight under control, you're fixing their heart problems, you're fixing other problems that they have, this is where you mentioned the word practical. This is the most practical thing you could possibly do, helping people without being a burden to the taxpayer. And that's why I have my hat, make Americans financially independent. This is part of the independence movement that I'm talking about.

We need independence in the nonprofit sector. We need independence in the private sector. We need independence in the corporate sector. And so this is one piece of the puzzle to fulfill the really the principles of the American Revolution, which was political independence. But the missing piece is the financial independence. And I think this is a great mission for people to get involved in because what it will do is we will have a healthier population.

lower costs that could be used for other things, education, housing, better nutrition, clothing, you name it. that's why Thomas Sowell, the great economist said regarding politicians, the first law of economics is scarcity. There's not enough to go around for everybody. The first law of politics is to ignore the first law of economics. And so that's the problem. We live in a world of relative scarcity. So what do you do with the money that you earn?

You can spend it, you can invest it, and you can make charitable contributions, which we do every year for quite a bit of charitable contributions because that's what I believe I should be doing in this life.

Zane Myers (23:06.008)
So, I mean, from a practical standpoint, where are you now and where would you want to go and what's the roadmap to get there?

Murray Sabrin (23:14.342)
Well, that's why I'm doing this Make Americans Financial Independent. I'm going to have this hat available soon online. I'm going to try to get on as many popular podcasts as possible where we can reach hundreds of thousands, millions of people in a short period of time. And this is all about people power. This is about people organizing at the local level to help their fellow citizens. I mean, it's easy to say, let the government do it. But we know the government does a poor job in everything that they do.

whether it's housing, education, transportation, you name it, they do a very poor job. So let's use what's been tried and true throughout American history, which is voluntary cooperation at the local level and get rid of the bureaucracies in Washington, DC. Like the Department of Education, which doesn't educate a single child, that's done in the classroom. So if we really want to educate kids, we want to make teachers as effective as possible. And having been in the classroom,

35 years at the college level and four years at the intermediate school level. The teacher is really the key to good education. And that is in line with the concept of health care. It's the physicians that deliver the health care, not the bureaucrats.

Zane Myers (24:26.83)
So how would you, so let's say I live here in Bellevue, Washington. Well, that's pretty affluent, it's not very, but if you go out just a little ways, North or South, there is a lot of, there's, I wouldn't say it's poverty stricken, but there's areas where people are just getting by. Well, even in our town, there's people who are just getting by. And I'm sure there's a lot of people who are on Medicaid who have a tough time making it.

And just like in New York City, or New Jersey, where you're originally from, there's a lot of affluence, but then there's the other side where there's a lot of people who just are not getting by. So I'll just take my town here. So how would you take a medium-sized city, suburb of Seattle, something like that?

I mean, what would you do for, mean, how could you implement something like this in that kind of situation?

Murray Sabrin (25:28.668)
You need data. The first data set you need is how many people are living 300 % above the federal poverty guide, federal poverty guideline. That is sort of the benchmark where people become eligible for these nonprofit medical centers. That's what the trustees that I was involved with when we created this one in Bergen County, which is a pretty, pretty affluent county, but there are pockets of low income folks in the county that don't have access to medical care.

So that's the first thing we did. We found out how many people are in the catchment area, so to speak, that would qualify for that. So you'd go to the medical society, you'd go to the county and find out how many people qualify for that. Then if you have enough of them, you could find out what facility could you go into pretty quickly. It could be a church basement, it could be a storefront, which is empty and the landlord's trying to fill it, and you could equip it with donated equipment.

You can get pharmaceuticals from the drug companies. That's the one in central Jersey, the Zarefat Health Center that was founded by two physicians. They're both pharmacists, so they have access to the pharmaceutical companies and they get medicine there. People come an hour away to go to that facility because they do such great work and they do it on a shoestring budget. I mean, it's a fraction of what the federally qualified health centers charge.

not charged, costs $150 at the federal qualified health centers for the Zarefat Health Center in central New Jersey. think the cost of seeing a patient, the average cost is like, I don't know, 30, $40. So they're really strict, very efficient in delivering medical care at a very low cost to them, which is all done through charitable contributions. So get the data.

on how many people in the area qualify, go to the medical society and let them know whoever wants to create one. This is what we want to do. And there's an organization, I don't know the name of it off the top of my head, but it's in my Subsec article and the letter to Bill Gates, a link to the umbrella organization of the nonprofits. And they would help you set one up in your community. So again, they become, they're like the trade association, the umbrella organization for the nonprofit health centers. And they would help.

Murray Sabrin (27:52.866)
anyone who wants to create one in their local community, whether it's the county, whether it's a large town, Naples is

Zane Myers (27:59.342)
So let me, I want to ask some more specifics. So I'm thinking, okay, this all sounds really good. And I'll just put myself in the place of someone who'd be interested in doing that, hypothetically. But I have a lot of responsibilities. have this business to run, I've got bills to pay, I've I have a certain time constraint. Plus I have grandkids, I have kids, I have

you all these things going on in my life and the idea of getting involved in that, I personally don't need it, but I could see how it would be of great benefit to the community. But how do I or how do you find someone who is going to take the time out to do this? mean, who do you who do you recruit to to and systematically? How would you

Do that.

Murray Sabrin (29:00.796)
That is the key issue. When I was invited by the founder of the Bergen Volunteer Medical Initiative, BVMI, he found out about me as a professor. I don't have a medical degree because I held a conference at the college on medical care. And Dr. Gene Cheslock, the founder of the Parker Family Health Center, was the keynote speaker. so Dr. Sam

who was the founder of BVMI contacted Dr. Cheslock because he was retired. He wanted to do something in the community to create a nonprofit health center. I was given, he was given my name. He called me, said, would you like to join the board of trustees? I said, absolutely to get this, get one here in Bergen County. And so you need a key person that could be a retired physician.

who may know something about it, may not know anything about it. But the point is information has to be spread through the community that a group of doctors or one doctor wants to create a nonprofit health center and he's recruiting doctors to staff it, maybe a medical director to oversee it and volunteers to get involved. And that's why the Umbrella Organization is a wonderful place to start because they may have a list of doctors

throughout the country that want to start one, but they don't know who else is available. And so this is how you get the synergy. You contact the umbrella organization, which is in my substack piece, the open letter to Bill Gates, and you begin the process. So if a doctor is watching now, who's retired, who wants to create one in your area, they can go to the umbrella organization and find out how to get started. they will give them... Excuse me?

Zane Myers (30:50.584)
So that's out there right now? That's out there right now? Okay, so give me the information and we'll put it in the show notes too.

Murray Sabrin (30:54.17)
Yeah, yeah, it's.

Murray Sabrin (30:58.748)
It's the open letter to Bill Gates on my Substack. I was written about two months ago, think. Murraysabren.substack.com. And I linked to the four nonprofits that we discussed, plus the Umbrella Organization. And you can see the great work that people are doing in their communities. And here's the thing that is really the key. This is about social entrepreneurship. They didn't have to...

get a directive from the state health department or the county health department or the HHS to do this, they decided this is part of my ethic. This is part of my essence. This is part of my being. And I want to help people in my community get quality health care without the bureaucracy of the government or the insurance companies. And when you think about it, it's just common sense. Why have so many layers of bureaucracy involved in the doctor-patient relationship? So again,

the efficacy, the great work that these people are doing just makes the insurance companies and the government programs pale in comparison in terms of outcomes. And so I would urge all the listeners to go to that article I wrote, the open letter to Bill Gates.

And you can see I lay out the criteria of why these things are important, how we can get rid of the Medicaid budget over the next several years, and that we can make the country healthier. Because as you know, the data on obesity is really frightening, and we know obesity is related to so many illnesses, chronic illnesses, and cost a bundle for hospitalization and medication. So if we can reduce the...

diabetes in the country, reduce heart disease in this country, reduce the possibility of stroke and all these other ailments, we could reduce that $5 trillion annual medical bill by at least 25 % to 50%.

Zane Myers (33:08.696)
So let me ask another question here because if I go to that, your sub stack there and I read the open letter to Bill Gates, is there somebody that can call?

Murray Sabrin (33:20.604)
Yeah, I think they're based in Virginia, the national organization that oversees the nonprofit health centers. Originally, the reason I got involved is in the mid 90s, there was an article in the New York Times about it. It was in Hilton Head, South Carolina. It was called Volunteers in Medicine. This was folded into this other organization. And Volunteers in Medicine was founded by Dr. Jack McConnell, who was instrumental in the development of Tylenol.

And I had a long conversation with him and he was just committed to helping people in Hilton Head, the low income folks that work there and didn't have access to medical care and weren't eligible for Medicaid. So he was able to get a waiver from the South Carolina legislature regarding malpractice insurance and licensing. And they were off to the races. And so that's another example of a...

of a nonprofit health center based upon the volunteers and medicine model that Jack McConnell created based upon the mutual aid societies that have been around for the past 200 years in the United States. So again, the history, the economics, the finance, the culture, the sociology, I mean, all the ingredients of all these nonprofit health centers is a tribute to the men and women across America that decided I want to do something to my fellow

citizens without having to put a burden on the taxpayer. And like I said, they're extremely efficient. think the neighborhood health clinic here in Naples, I think for every dollar they raise, I think 94 cents goes to programs.

Zane Myers (35:06.348)
Yeah, that's really good. if we go to your open letter on your sub stack, would you find a phone number or do need to give me a phone number later? You go to the website.

Murray Sabrin (35:16.328)
You have to go to the website and I link everything. That's the beauty of Substack. You can link resources to people so they can get the firsthand information. In this case, I said, I better put the umbrella organization in the open letter because if Bill Gates literally with his $55 billion foundation can eliminate Medicaid by helping create

these institutions, around the country. And he could partner with local communities and say, listen, I'll put up 50 % of the money to help create one, whether it's 100,000, 250,000. And then your job is to recruit the doctors and staff it and raise the money every year to pay the bills and keep the lights on.

Zane Myers (36:04.238)
Okay, let's let's end it on that note. I'm gonna go and I'll go to your sub stack and I'll pull that up and and I'll find that information so that I can put it in the show notes unless you want to save me the trouble and and send that on to me, but I enjoyed it. Thank you very much for your for coming on Murray and I I like your approach. I think it's I think it's a battle.

but it seems like one you're committed to doing. So my hat's off to you.

Murray Sabrin (36:37.7)
I appreciate it, Zane. Listen, this is my last chapter, if you will, having spent most of my career in education and finance and economic analysis. again, I don't play golf. So the question is, what do I do with my retirement years? And I've always been interested in public policy. I run for office in New Jersey and make the case to the people that this is the way to do what the government says.

Zane Myers (36:53.154)
Hahaha

Murray Sabrin (37:04.636)
it wants to do, which is to help people. we know governments is a very clumsy institution. It's heavily bureaucratic. It's costly and they're not great outcomes. So why would people continue to support these government programs when there is alternatives that are less costly, more effective and have better outcomes? That's the choice the American people have. What do you want? Better outcomes at lower cost? do you want to... What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result?

That's what we see when we talk about government spending.

Zane Myers (37:37.24)
Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much, Murray. My hat's off to you and good luck in putting the whole thing together and continuing forward. So thank you very much. So hang with me for just a second and I'm going to press this stop.

Murray Sabrin (37:48.016)
Well, thanks for the.